Nekonomicon - What's the fair price for V12 ?

PymbleSoftware
From P.O. Box 529, Gordon, Sydney, NSW 2072, Australia.
Who joined July 15, 2008, 5:48 p.m.

Wrote the following at Nov. 23, 2011, 4:31 a.m...

you'd better cross your fingers, because SGI probably has a database of part#/serial# for support purposes, and all your serial#'s (the ABC123 thingie) would show up as V10 parts ...

Maybe, but it also seem that at least some of the pre-rackspace SGI has been dismantled. Some of the SGI staff I've talked to don't even believe they ever sold MIPS based workstations. Weather they would know the difference between a V10 or V12 is up in the air.

R.

死の神はりんごだけ食べる

開いた括弧は必ず閉じる -- あるプログラマー

:Tezro:

J5600, 2 x Mac, 3 x SUN, Alpha DS20E, Alpha 800 5/550, 3 x RS/6000, Amiga 4000 VideoToaster, Amiga4000 -030, 733MHz Sam440 AmigaOS 4.1 update 1.

Sold: :Indy:

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Twitter @PymbleSoftware
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Github ---> https://github.com/pymblesoftware

jan-jaap
Donor
From Wijchen, The Netherlands
Who joined June 17, 2004, 11:35 a.m.

Wrote the following at Nov. 23, 2011, 5:28 a.m...

I've posted my knowledge of EEPROMs in a new thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16725883

Happy hacking

Now this is a deep dark secret, so everybody keep it quiet

It turns out that when reset, the WD33C93 defaults to a SCSI ID of 0, and it was simpler to leave it that way... -- Dave Olson, in comp.sys.sgi
Currently in commercial service:

(2x)

In the museum : almost every MIPS/IRIX system.
Wanted : GM1 board for Professional Series GT graphics (030-0076-003, 030-0076-004)

kubatyszko
From Tokyo
Who joined Nov. 12, 2011, 3:18 a.m.

Wrote the following at Nov. 23, 2011, 3:27 p.m...

PymbleSoftware wrote:

you'd better cross your fingers, because SGI probably has a database of part#/serial# for support purposes, and all your serial#'s (the ABC123 thingie) would show up as V10 parts ...

Maybe, but it also seem that at least some of the pre-rackspace SGI has been dismantled. Some of the SGI staff I've talked to don't even believe they ever sold MIPS based workstations. Weather they would know the difference between a V10 or V12 is up in the air.

R.

Well, this may be a bit on the edge, but there are ways to get many names from the RCS logs of something that used to be available on the net for a while (*you* know what I'm thinking of

), and approach them, I guarantee that no geek in this world who built something would ever let it die - so I would assume many of those people could be helpful - but aside from getting their names, it may be hard to approach them(also so that neither side faces legal issues)... And I think 6.5.5 didn't include support for Vpro, so those may not even be the right people which makes it even more difficult (but they might know who knows who knows who

)

On the other hand, if by the time SGI released Fuel they knew or expected to be approaching end of MIPS line, it would make perfect sense to build V10/V12's from even the same hardware (many companies do that - CDWriters are often based on the same hardware with only fw being different for various models, even in Mainframes you get extra CPU's in the chassis and they enable them for you once you pay) - in the 2000's it could have been cheaper for them to build one unit of hardware and mod it by proper firmware accordingly to become V10/V12. Plus it gives them extra possibility to modify cards back per market demand if they ran out of stock (happening now ? - not that they still keep any people who would know how to do it though..)

"Oh, dear customer, and if you want to change V10 to V12 you need to pay a few extra $$, and we'll give you the same card with V12 firmware and a new sticker on it"

How likely is that ?

[click for links to hinv] JP: :Fuel: | :O2: | :Indy: || PL: [ :Fuel: :O2:

]

PymbleSoftware
From P.O. Box 529, Gordon, Sydney, NSW 2072, Australia.
Who joined July 15, 2008, 5:48 p.m.

Wrote the following at Nov. 23, 2011, 3:39 p.m...

I think kubatyszko is talking about the "golden screw driver" ( http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... crewdriver ). Its been around for decades.

But I think there is a difference between V10 and V12 ... Look at the first table in http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/VPro#Features

R.

死の神はりんごだけ食べる

開いた括弧は必ず閉じる -- あるプログラマー

:Tezro:

J5600, 2 x Mac, 3 x SUN, Alpha DS20E, Alpha 800 5/550, 3 x RS/6000, Amiga 4000 VideoToaster, Amiga4000 -030, 733MHz Sam440 AmigaOS 4.1 update 1.

Sold: :Indy:

Tandem Himalaya S-Series Nonstop S72000 ServerNet.

Twitter @PymbleSoftware
Current Apps (iOS) -> https://itunes.apple.com/au/artist/pymb ... d553990081
(Android) https://play.google.com/store/apps/deve ... +Ltd&hl=en
(Onyx2) Cortex ---> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cortex-th ... 11?sk=info
(0300s) Minnie ---> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Minnie-th ... 02?sk=info
Github ---> https://github.com/pymblesoftware

kubatyszko
From Tokyo
Who joined Nov. 12, 2011, 3:18 a.m.

Wrote the following at Nov. 23, 2011, 3:45 p.m...

PymbleSoftware wrote: I think kubatyszko is talking about the "golden screw driver" ( http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... crewdriver ). Its been around for decades.

But I think there is a difference between V10 and V12 ... Look at the first table in http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/VPro#Features

R.

Yup. that's exactly what I'm talking about, in addition to the Golden Screwdriver there also used to be "a box with spare parts" - some countries were not allowed to be sold more than X of memory or CPU's in the set (cold war etc), so they would buy a bunch of "spare parts"

(and don't I need to mention they would install all of them later).

Well maybe I'm smoking, first hamei suggested there may be a way to use Tezro's V12 in the Fuel, but later posts suggest "upgrading" V10 to become V12...

Time to go to work, cheers.

[click for links to hinv] JP: :Fuel: | :O2: | :Indy: || PL: [ :Fuel: :O2:

]

hamei
From over the rainbow
Who joined Feb. 24, 2004, 4:10 p.m.

Wrote the following at Nov. 23, 2011, 6:10 p.m...

kubatyszko wrote: Well maybe I'm smoking, first hamei suggested there may be a way to use Tezro's V12 in the Fuel, but later posts suggest "upgrading" V10 to become V12....

Sorry for the confusion. Tezro and Fuel V10's and V12's are the same. It would be more practical to upgrade a Tezro by using a Fuel card tho, the Fuel is a lot less expensive than a Tezro. The Octane V10 and V12 have similar features to the Fuel / Tezro / Onyx350 Infinite Performance, but a different physical layout and no DVI connector.

Pymble : the late model slot-mount V10's and V12's are physically the same. The earlier revisions were different but apparently later on the price of memory was less than the price of stocking two versions of the card, so they did the ol' "charge $5,000 to clip the gold wire to make it twice as powerful" trick. It might have made their customers happier if they'd given the V10 128 megs of memory and put 512 on the V12 but Profit is Our Most Important Product !!

Maybe that's why SGI went tits-up, too. Does value never enter into the calculations of the buffoons running our society ?

recondas
Moderator
From NC - USA
Who joined June 6, 2004, 5:55 p.m.

Wrote the following at Nov. 23, 2011, 7:27 p.m...

PymbleSoftware wrote: But I think there is a difference between V10 and V12 ... Look at the first table in http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/VPro#Features

The Fuel used V10s with two different part numbers.

The first V10, those with part number 030-1725-00x, had 32MB of memory soldered to the PCB.

Later in production SGI began using V10s with part number 030-1826-00x. It was discovered during the thread linked above that these V10s actually had 128MB of memory - the PCB and components are identical to the 030-1726-00x V12 used in the Fuel.

Since both have 128MB of memory, hamei was trying to point out that if you can determine how the Fuel defines one as a V10 and the other as a V12, Fuel V12s might not be so rare/expensive. That was also why jan-jaap started the thread that contained the contents of the 030-1826-00x V10 eeprom: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16725883 - so that perhaps someone here can decipher how one is identified with only 32MB and the other with 128MB.

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PymbleSoftware
From P.O. Box 529, Gordon, Sydney, NSW 2072, Australia.
Who joined July 15, 2008, 5:48 p.m.

Wrote the following at Nov. 23, 2011, 10:59 p.m...

recondas wrote: Since both have 128MB of memory, hamei was trying to point out that if you can determine how the Fuel defines one as a V10 and the as a V12, Fuel V12s might not be so rare/expensive. That was also why jan-jaap started the thread that contained the contents of the 030-1826-00x V10 eeprom: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16725883 - so that perhaps someone here can decipher how one is identified with only 32MB and the other with 128MB.

Oh, ok.
I had already linked to the Jan-Jaap EPROM disassembly topic in: http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/VPro#See_Also

It might be very enlightening for some if this information was collated and added to the wiki...

I have created:
http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/V12
http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/V10
http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/V8
http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/V6

If someone was successful with a hackenV12 we could add something to the HowTo category.

hamei wrote: Pymble : the late model slot-mount V10's and V12's are physically the same. The earlier revisions were different but apparently later on the price of memory was less than the price of stocking two versions of the card, so they did the ol' "charge $5,000 to clip the gold wire to make it twice as powerful" trick. It might have made their customers happier if they'd given the V10 128 megs of memory and put 512 on the V12 but Profit is Our Most Important Product !!

Extremely interesting.

hamei wrote: The Octane V10 and V12 have similar features to the Fuel / Tezro / Onyx350 Infinite Performance, but a different physical layout and no DVI connector.

Yes, but no. My V12 in my Octane2 has DCD (ie DVI) and the 13W3 is inaccessible... viewtopic.php?f=14&t=16724761

hamei wrote: Maybe that's why SGI went tits-up, too. Does value never enter into the calculations of the buffoons running our society ?

Maybe SGI went tits-up due to karma, or maybe thats me over thinking things. For some reason the largest bookstore in the city was over run by Buddhist monks today, you couldn't move without tripping over someone in saffron robes. No idea what they were looking for.

jan-jaap wrote:

Code: Select all
part# eeprom id V10, Fuel, old rev. 030_1725_00x ASTODYB V10, Fuel, new rev. 030_1826_00x ASTODYV10 V12, Fuel 030_1726_00x ASTODY V12, Tezro 030_1884_00x ODY128B1_2

'AST' is for 'Asterix', the codename for Fuel. 'ODY' is short for Odyssey, the codename for VPro graphics.

I'd like to add that table to the wiki.

R.

死の神はりんごだけ食べる

開いた括弧は必ず閉じる -- あるプログラマー

:Tezro:

J5600, 2 x Mac, 3 x SUN, Alpha DS20E, Alpha 800 5/550, 3 x RS/6000, Amiga 4000 VideoToaster, Amiga4000 -030, 733MHz Sam440 AmigaOS 4.1 update 1.

Sold: :Indy:

Tandem Himalaya S-Series Nonstop S72000 ServerNet.

Twitter @PymbleSoftware
Current Apps (iOS) -> https://itunes.apple.com/au/artist/pymb ... d553990081
(Android) https://play.google.com/store/apps/deve ... +Ltd&hl=en
(Onyx2) Cortex ---> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cortex-th ... 11?sk=info
(0300s) Minnie ---> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Minnie-th ... 02?sk=info
Github ---> https://github.com/pymblesoftware

jan-jaap
Donor
From Wijchen, The Netherlands
Who joined June 17, 2004, 11:35 a.m.

Wrote the following at Nov. 24, 2011, 1:01 a.m...

PymbleSoftware wrote:

jan-jaap wrote:

Code: Select all
part# eeprom id V10, Fuel, old rev. 030_1725_00x ASTODYB V10, Fuel, new rev. 030_1826_00x ASTODYV10 V12, Fuel 030_1726_00x ASTODY V12, Tezro 030_1884_00x ODY128B1_2

'AST' is for 'Asterix', the codename for Fuel. 'ODY' is short for Odyssey, the codename for VPro graphics.

I'd like to add that table to the wiki.

Go for it.

hamei wrote: Tezro and Fuel V10's and V12's are the same.

You can put a Fuel V12 in a Tezro and it will work. They are functionally the same. But as the table shows, they have different product names and part numbers. And Recondas noticed that the Tezro version has an extra fan header: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=16724415#p7332881

PS: and I can tell that his Tezro has a V12 from a Fuel

( Not that he had kept that a secret ).

Now this is a deep dark secret, so everybody keep it quiet

It turns out that when reset, the WD33C93 defaults to a SCSI ID of 0, and it was simpler to leave it that way... -- Dave Olson, in comp.sys.sgi
Currently in commercial service:

(2x)

In the museum : almost every MIPS/IRIX system.
Wanted : GM1 board for Professional Series GT graphics (030-0076-003, 030-0076-004)

hamei
From over the rainbow
Who joined Feb. 24, 2004, 4:10 p.m.

Wrote the following at Nov. 24, 2011, 1:25 a.m...

jan-jaap wrote: And Recondas noticed that the Tezro version has an extra fan header: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=16724415#p7332881

Is that just a header soldered onto a pad on the same base board, or is it a different circuit board entirely ? I had a Fuel V10 and a Fuel V12 sitting side by side and could not find any difference between them with my 6" magnifying glass. (Other than the part numbers, that is)

kubatyszko
Who joined Nov. 12, 2011, 3:18 a.m.
and authored 304 notes

Wrote the following at Nov. 27, 2011, 2:58 p.m...

Oh, and speaking of ebay luck - I just got 2*256 RAM for Octane for 1 EUR

- now gotta pay 5 EUR for shipping hehe.

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:Fuel: :Octane2: :Octane:

:O2: :Indy: :Indy:

] PL: [ :Fuel: :O2:

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For Sale: 2*O200 M/B, 2*O200 PSU, 6*256MB O200 RAM, 2*O200 SCSI Backplane, 2*O200 MSC, DMediaPro DM-2 ( 030-1653-002 Rev. H , XT-DIGVID) with Octane XIO pull (Origin pull optionally available)

tjsgifan
Who joined Sept. 14, 2004, 2:03 a.m.
and authored 469 notes

Wrote the following at Nov. 30, 2011, 4:13 p.m...

Well to add my 2 cents worth.... a Fuel V12 slots into Tezro no questions asked, but a Tezro V12 does not slot into Fuel, requires minor modification to stop the bottom hitting the chassis.

If someone wants some late revision V10 Fuel graphics cards to experiment with for the greater good, please PM me. I would like a V12 in return

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foetz
Who joined April 14, 2003, 3:34 a.m.
and authored 4683 notes

Wrote the following at March 20, 2013, 8:13 a.m...

jan-jaap wrote:

Code:

   part#          eeprom id
   
   V10, Fuel, old rev.    030_1725_00x   ASTODYB
   
   V10, Fuel, new rev.    030_1826_00x   ASTODYV10
   
   V12, Fuel              030_1726_00x   ASTODY
   
   V12, Tezro             030_1884_00x   ODY128B1_2

there's one more. mine reads:

Code:

  ODYSSEY     ASTODY          MMP283         030_1996_001          A    00

according to the list of a reseller it's a legit fool v12.

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recondas
Moderator
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Wrote the following at April 25, 2013, 2:24 a.m...

foetz wrote:

jan-jaap wrote:

Code:

    part#          eeprom id
    
    V10, Fuel, old rev.    030_1725_00x   ASTODYB
    
    V10, Fuel, new rev.    030_1826_00x   ASTODYV10
    
    V12, Fuel              030_1726_00x   ASTODY
    
    V12, Tezro             030_1884_00x   ODY128B1_2

there's one more. mine reads:

Code:

   ODYSSEY     ASTODY          MMP283         030_1996_001          A    00

according to the list of a reseller it's a legit fool v12.

There was a brief discussion on the 030-1996-001 Fuel V12 some time back - as mentioned in that thread Oskar45 has one with that part number in his Fuel.

And here's yet another - also gleaned from a previous thread ....

Code:

030-1909-003; Name:ODY128B1_2

.....taken from the hinv -mvvv of an Onyx350 InfinitePerformance.

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foetz
Who joined April 14, 2003, 3:34 a.m.
and authored 4683 notes

Wrote the following at April 25, 2013, 1:08 p.m...

indeed, here is the original hinv thread viewtopic.php?t=8366
looks like Oskar45 was the first to enjoy that sort of v12

anyway i can't complain and didn't notice any curious behavior so far. maybe it just was an early model ...

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recondas
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Wrote the following at April 25, 2013, 4:47 p.m...

foetz wrote:

anyway i can't complain and didn't notice any curious behavior so far. maybe it just was an early model ...

If you have the opportunity you might consider 'decoding' the 030-1996-001 EEPROM data to see if anything enlightening might lurk within: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16725883

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foetz
Who joined April 14, 2003, 3:34 a.m.
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Wrote the following at April 26, 2013, 10:45 a.m...

ah yeah i'll dump the prom but might need someone else to "translate" it

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recondas
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Wrote the following at June 5, 2013, 12:23 p.m...

tjsgifan wrote:

Well to add my 2 cents worth.... a Fuel V12 slots into Tezro no questions asked, but a Tezro V12 does not slot into Fuel, requires minor modification to stop the bottom hitting the chassis.

Had the V12 out of the Tezro during dustbunny hunting season and this thread came to mind. While it was out I took a few photos the Tezro V12 to illustrate what's different in the Tezro and Fuel mounting hardware.

Second generation V12's like those used in the Fuel, Tezro and Onyx350 IP have a attachment point located on the 'bottom' side of the heatsink boss. The one used in the Tezro Tower has a button head standoff that slides into a clip on the bottom of the Tezro chassis:

Attachment:

VPro_1.jpg [ 108.25 KiB | Viewed 118 times ]

V12s used in the Fuel have a hex-shaped standoff that is internally threaded to receive a machine screw that's inserted through the bottom of the Fuel chassis. The Fuel VPro shown in the photo is actually a V10 installed in an Origin350, but Fuel V10 and V12s use the same standoff, the one shown is the original Fuel part (the Origin350 has a matching hole in the chassis lid to allow for placement of the attachment screw):

Attachment:

Fuel_V12.jpg [ 113.54 KiB | Viewed 118 times ]

The standoffs used in either version of the V12 can be unscrewed from the heatsink boss and be easily interchanged. The Tezro standoff is slotted to allow removal with a flat-tip screwdriver, the hexagonal shape of the Fuel standoff allows for removal with a wrench. The end of either standoff (that goes against the chassis) is threaded to accept an attachment screw:

Attachment:

VPro_2.jpg [ 89.84 KiB | Viewed 118 times ]

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ajw99uk
Who joined April 19, 2011, 3:59 a.m.
and authored 113 notes

Wrote the following at June 9, 2013, 1:34 p.m...

Just swapped a V10 out and ex-Tezro V12 in to upgrade my Fuel. As far as I could tell, it went straight in and the bottom-fixing machine screw fitted easily. Should I have swapped the stand-offs? They looked the same height, so I don't think there'd be any stress on the V12 - but easy enough to switch them.

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recondas
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Wrote the following at June 9, 2013, 4:58 p.m...

I don't currently have a VPro with the Fuel/hexagonal standoff, or I would have included measurements for both (you're welcome to add the info).

As long as the secured Tezro standoff doesn't flex the PCB of the V12 when it's installed in the Fuel I'd think you're fine.

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SGI: Hardware

What's the fair price for V12 ? - Page 2